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Comments / Questions / Feedback:
Comment by Mary on Wednesday, July 27, 2016
This is very interesting. Has me stumped too. I just thought it is
interesting #3 still has its caterpillar prolegs even after becoming a pupa. Or
rather the abdomen still looks like the caterpillar's.
I wonder if anyone else was able to help you figure out what happened. Doesn't
look quite like the OE disease monarchs get? Could the food you gave them have
been exposed to pesticides? (nursery bought plants or harvested from a park,
business or wherever else they might use chemicals on their lawn and garden?))
How was the humidity and temperature? Did they have trouble spinning their silk
pads? I notice if they don't get a decent anchor or have to redo it, sometimes
the caterpillar might not make it in time to properly J before having to split.
Another thing that can do harm is if they get an injury on their rear end.
As far as #2. The caterpillar probably stopped because it was too weak to
achieve the molt. Another culprit could be the dreaded NPV virus. This would
cause them to turn into liquid goo.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Mary, Thanks for your comment and thoughts. My backyard is pesticide
free, and all of my milkweed was grown from seed, so I don't think it has
anything to do with pesticides. It might be a virus like you've suggested, but
if so, it was a one-time thing. I've never seen anything like this before, and
never since. I let most of the caterpillars grow up on the milkweed, and then
they disappear and turn into chrysalises somewhere (I hope). Sometimes I find
chrysalises (or empty chrysalises), but often I don't. So maybe it's happening
in "the wild" of my backyard, but I'm not aware of it. I still lose a lot of
caterpillars and chrysalises to the Tachinid fly, but again, I've never seen
something like this again. If anyone else has any ideas, please let me know.
Thanks again for your comment!
Comment by Monique on Sunday, August 28, 2016
Caterpillars are easily stressed if it looks like the food supply is low or
if they "run out" often and they will begin to pupate prematurely (before
they really should - sometimes as early as 4th instars). #3 may have died
halfway into pupation. I have seen some remnants of prolegs on chrysalis and
believe it is due to a hasty pupation (less than 18 hours in the J mode). I
believe #2 probably also pupated before full maturity as well. It is also
important to have a proper anchor so the contractions can pull the skin off
the body quickly with exhausting the caterpillar. Can't really see what is
happening on egg #2 where it is anchored. A sign of being too weak to pupate
is being too weak to form a proper silk pad to anchor to. I think the
caterpillar needs copious amounts of food with no interruptions for as long
as possible as a 5th instar before pupating to maximize success.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Monique, As far as I remember, the caterpillars had enough fresh milkweed
leaves, but maybe the issue was still some kind of stress as you suggest,
and they simply began to pupate before they were ready. I'm just surprised
I've never seen this before (and I did have some caterpillars run out of
milkweed and I then fed them butternut squash, and they lived and turned
into butterflies), and I've never seen it since. It also happened to two in
a row, not just one. Anyway, your explanation could be it, at least that it
was some form of stress, but not necessarily running out of food. Thanks for
your comment and insight!
Comment by Monique on Wednesday, August 31, 2016
Depending on how the milkweed is presented they may not migrate to the fresh
leaves and cling to their old stripped down stems (check the amount they are
eating from the leaves). Excessive heat or dryness will make them pupate
prematurely and usually unsuccessfully. Make sure their environment is humid
>50% Relative Humidity, and stays below 81F and does not fluctuate more than
15F (glass enclosures like an aquarium can get very much hotter than the
surrounding air even if not in direct sunlight). Also pulling cats from the
"wild" at too late a stage and bringing them into captivity will make them
pupate. They just want to get out of the captive environment and will not
eat anything. They have a healthy flight instinct (fight or flight) and if
they are scared they can be in flight mode for hours until they are
exhausted and pupate. Stress really takes a toll on them. Maybe #2 attempted
to pupate in direct sunlight. Make sure they are not pupating in direct
sunlight and relative humidity is extra high for safety.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Monique, Thanks for your additional comment and great information and
advice. In my case, these two caterpillars were raised from eggs I found
outside. Their little shelters were outside in the shade with ample airflow,
and they had plenty of fresh milkweed. I would add new leaves and they
finished the old leaves, and they would quickly move over and start eating
the new leaves. I don't remember what the weather was like, since it was
last summer. It might have been hot and/or dry. I just can't remember. In
any event, your information is great advice for anyone raising caterpillars
in captivity. Thank you!
Comment by Pam on Tuesday, September 20, 2016
I don't have any ideas regarding your issue but this year I have had the
same problem. I have had several cats go into J shape and only form 1/4"
chrysalis. Some were hatched from eggs and others I found as 1st or 2nd
instars outside. Raised them indoors in a spare bedroom. None ever ran out
of leaves and I don't touch them. I'd like to know what's going on.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Pam, I'm sorry to hear that you had the same or similar problem. Very
strange. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Comment by Linda McCulloch on Saturday, September 24, 2016
Hi all, I was extremely happy this month to have a lot more monarchs, and
therefore many more cats on my milkweed. Like many of you, my yard is
pesticide-free, and all the milkweed is self-seeding and has been for
several years. I have plenty of milkweed so no worries about the cats
running out of food. So at least 9 of the cats got really big, fat,
healthy-looking etc. This week they began working their ways off of the
milkweed and over to other plants to pupate. (They seem to really like to
pupate on our large clumps of garlic chives.)
But! Yesterday and then today I saw two of the cats, hanging from the chive
stems, just straight down, with their silk hanging loose. They never formed
the J shape, or if they did I did not see it. Now they are sort of shriveled
looking and obviously dead.
I have not seen any Tachinid fly maggots (yet). And now that I have decided
to look out here on the Internet and have seen some similar problems, I am
concerned. We do live in Georgia, which is in an extreme drought situation
and it's been hideously hot. Could the cats have gotten dehydrated somehow?
I read on another site that some folks think it's a good idea to spray-mist
them as they grow.
Any additional thoughts welcome. If you need me to upload a picture let me
know. I haven't shot any, but I could do that if it would help.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Linda, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the dead caterpillars were
just hanging there "with their silk hanging loose". But if you mean you saw
thin white silk threads dangling from the dead caterpillar, then that means
the cat was killed by the Tachinid fly maggot, and the maggot has already
emerged and then dropped to the ground via the silk thread. You probably
won't find the maggot because it will wiggle away and hide, and then turn
into a hard little reddish-brown "seed". A few days later, the "seed" will
hatch and the fly will emerge. I have a different post on this website about
the Tachinid fly, and have pictures on it. It's a problem I haven't been able
to solve yet, but fortunately at least a few of our caterpillars somehow
avoid the flies and turn into butterflies, but with the others it always
hurts to lose them.
Comment by Linda McCulloch on Sunday, September 25, 2016
Hi Steve, Thank you so much for your answer, I am now fairly sure that you
are correct about the Tachinid fly maggots. Yuck. But your description is
very accurate, and the fact that the caterpillars look shriveled and kind of
empty would make sense, if the maggot ate them from the inside out. (Double
yuck.) I will keep looking for healthy chrysalises of the remaining cats
because we had a lot more this year. Fingers crossed.
Comment by Ola on Friday, September 30, 2016
Found this thread because this just now happened to one of mine. Looked
healthy, j formed properly, antennae went limp and skin started to split and
then stopped. Raised this batch from eggs and cleaned the leaves (though no
pesticides used outside) before giving them to caterpillars. First time this
has happened to me. Very distressing. Am in So.Cal.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Ola, Thanks for your comment, and for letting me know this happened to
you too. I think it must be fairly uncommon since I didn't find anything
about it when I searched online after it happened to me, but thanks to your
comment and also Pam above, I now know I'm not the only one this has ever
happened to.
Comment by Debbie on Monday, October 03, 2016
I live in Southern California and this is my first year raising Monarchs.
Just recently I had one cat partially pupate, and one hung that it's skin
began to shrink from the tail. I'm glad to see other posts with the same
experience. I have had successes and losses, losses outnumber successes,
unfortunately. I do raise them inside and release them when they are ready.
It is October and there seems to be no slowing down of Monarchs laying eggs
in my small patch of milkweed! I currently have eight entering into their J
stages and have recently released 7. Knowing that only less than 1 in 10
make it into the butterfly stage encourages me for my small hatchery, and
very happy for the successes I have.
Comment by Tiffany on Monday, October 10, 2016
This has happened to me with three separate chrysalises this year! It's so
strange indeed. Earlier this summer, one of them formed only half of its
chrysalis. After a couple weeks of watching and wondering, it was obvious
that it was long gone. The next one only formed half, and I figured it would
be the same untimely end, but the next day it finished forming the
chrysalis! I was shocked! It has only been 5 days since then, so I'm anxious
to see if a butterfly will really emerge from that one. And the third just
happened yesterday. It looked big and healthy and hung in a J yesterday
morning and by evening had only formed a small cap of chrysalis on the top
of its head. It's been over 24 hours now and no changes, except it's no
longer in a J and is straight and limp. I'm nervous to consider it a goner
though since the second one seemed to finish with a little more time. It's
just so weird and every failure makes me a little sad, even though we've had
over a dozen successes this summer! After reading these posts I'm guessing
that they got stressed about the food availability because they were indoors
in their own containers but their leaves were on the crunchy side (although
the third one did have a butterfly emerge in the same container a couple of
weeks ago). It's also pretty dry here in Utah. I'm sure it's too late in the
season to find more eggs, but I'm hopeful that this won't happen next year!
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Tiffany, Thanks for sharing your experience. Maybe this is more common
than I thought. It's very interesting that it happened with your
caterpillars three times this year. It's especially interesting that the
second caterpillar stopped pupating half way through, but then was able to
finish pupating the next day. I had no idea that was even possible. I hope
you will update us on whether or not that chrysalis turns into a butterfly.
This is very strange indeed!
Comment by Sarah on Tuesday, October 11, 2016
I have lots of milkweed around my complex and the yard guys hack the plant
so I take caterpillars and sometime cut the chrysalis branch off to help
them. I let them roam on my porch with milkweed and other plants available.
They can easily crawl to a plethora of moll weed if they want but they stay.
They need space. They don't like to be crowded. I supply fresh milkweed
flowers on top of having a milkweed plant. This has happened with a few of
mine too. I live in Az but keep them in natural environment. Outside. I mist
water on the plant sometimes to keep them hydrated and cool too.
Comment by manda on Sunday, November 13, 2016
I am devastated. I had about 10 caterpillars, extremely healthy and the
plant was still full of leaves about a week ago. They looked like they were
full size, but now I can't find any pupae hanging in the butterfly weed or
nearby plants. Do the caterpillars move away.. and if so, why? What do you
think happened. I don't even see any dead pupae hanging... basically no
trace of them.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Manda, Don't be devastated. I think your caterpillars are probably just
fine. They won't hang and form a chrysalis when they're in the milkweed.
Instead they will wander off somewhere else to form a chrysalis. I think
they can go 50 feet to 200 feet or more. All of our outdoor caterpillars get
big and then "disappear". We've been luck enough to find a few chrysalises
in trees, in bushes, and on walls (up to 50 feet away), and sometimes don't
find the chrysalis until later after it's hatched and empty. The only way to
see them form a chrysalis for sure is to "trap" them and keep them in a
container (make sure they have enough leaves to eat until they're ready to
pupate). We just let our outdoor caterpillars do their thing instead, which
means most of them "disappear" but we're pretty sure most turn into
butterflies. Take another long look around your yard, and you might find a
chrysalis. Good luck!
Comment by Alex on Sunday, December 11, 2016
Hello, One of my monarch caterpillars has fallen off of its leaf it was
attached to. The branch was accidentally severed which wilted the leaf and
when I was trying to move it to a safe place it detached and has not moved -
it looks asleep, no movement. I have no experience with butterflies. Help
pls, what can I do?
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Alex, When a Monarch caterpillar is disturbed (i.e. if they fall, or if
you pick them up) I think they typically will curl up "play dead" for a
while. Hopefully, that's all that was happening with your caterpillar, and
after a while he should uncurl and crawl away. Good luck!
Comment by Eileen on Monday, January 23, 2017
I've had a similar problem with half-formed or less chrysalises in my last
two cats. Both were brought in from the milkweed outside. The weather had
been quite cold and windy here in FL, so we thought we were saving them.
Both ate well and the second one was placed on a plant in a netted house.
Yesterday I watered the plant in the cage and my cat fell down onto the wet
ground. I tried to help it get back on a leaf and saw it crawl up a stem and
stay there. This morning it hung straight down on that stem and its head had
a small amount of chrysalis. It's obviously dead. Is handling the problem?
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Eileen, Thanks for your comment. I'm sorry to hear that the
partial-pupation problem happened to two of your caterpillars. I don't know
what causes it, but from the comments here, several people have seen it
happen. A few theories have been posted here, but I don't know what actually
causes it or if it could be multiple factors. I just know that it isn't very
common, and I'm guessing that your next batch of caterpillars will do
better. Good luck!
Comment by Joan Moore on Monday, May 29, 2017
Seems that I have had all of the same problems as the ones described above.
It was ok trying to raise Monarchs in spring, but now in Ft. Lauderdale the
temp has risen to 100 degrees with high humidity. One of my chrysalis fell
from a leaf and the top popped off and an owey gooey yellow spilled out of
the top. The one Monarch that was born in early May flies around and is
constantly laying eggs. When they are not put into a cages the lizards eat
them. Don't know how to stop the process and wait until it gets cooler in
the fall. I get so upset when they get sick, just don't know what to do.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Joan, Have you ever actually seen a lizard eat one of your caterpillars?
We have a lot of "blue-belly" lizards around, especially this year, and I've
sometimes wondered if they eat caterpillars, but I've never actually seen it
happen. I like watching our lizards... I just hope they aren't eating our
Monarch caterpillars!
I understand how depressing it can be to see the caterpillars and
chrysalises not make it... but at least sometimes they do! I'm not sure what
to recommend, other than it will be better in the fall. Good luck!
Comment by Joan Moore on Sunday, June 10, 2017
Thanks for getting back to me. I have never actually seen a lizard eat a
caterpillar, but when I first started out with milkweed I moved my plant
with at least 15 caterpillars from a very sunny place to a more shady area
under a nice shrub. Also, I added a few other milkweed plants so they
wouldn't run out of food. The pots were on the ground. At one point I walked
over and saw two lizards fighting among the milkweed plants, although one
was a curly tailed pot belly from the Bahamas, and very aggressive, I didn't
think much of it until the next day every single caterpillar was gone from
the tiniest to the full grown one a total of about 15 caterpillars. I was
horrified and moved all of the plants out of the area. That was when I
ordered the mesh cages. Only one Monarch caterpillar has survived out of 30
on its own. Now that I have the cage there are many chrysalis on the roof
and I can't wait to see them hatch. The caterpillars also are now dining on
cool cucumber chunks when they get big enough. Sometimes they lay across the
cucumber, it is very cute. Happy Monarchs.
Comment by Brooke Brown on Saturday, July 01, 2017
I've raised 80 or so over the last 2 years. I have had this happen
sporadically. It won't be ALL of them, but it generally won't just happen to
one of them.
I asked an etymologist, he thought that maybe they were dehydrated. I raise
them inside, in the air conditioning (set at 78), but I spritz them with
water twice a day. But I don't know if that was actually the trouble. :(
Comment by Cassie Graham on Monday, July 10, 2017
We've had the same experience with cats unable to continue the chrysalis
process here in Southern Florida. Based on the above comments our problem
could be the direct sunlight. We'll test that by making shade available!
But, I tell you, it was absolutely HEARTBREAKING to see many, many fat
caterpillars start the chrysalis and then be unable to complete it!
Comment by AD on Sunday, July 16, 2017
I've successfully hatched/raised 7 monarchs this season from eggs or various
instars (all brought in from outside), with 3 more in a chrysalis, 2 getting
ready to hang and another that sounds like other comments here. It lost its
anchor, is hanging by a single thread and has failed to get its skin all the
way off once it started to pupate :( it was squirming and trying its
darndest to successfully pupate but now it's still. The top and bottom split
but the middle didn't. It's a chrysalis with a corset and the skin on the
top/bottom is still all on one side of the corseted chrysalis. I don't think
this one is gonna make it. :( Never had this happen before.
This poor guy is one of 3 in the same space. The two other cats can't seem
to leave each other alone, they keep getting in each other's space
interrupting the process to form their anchors (they have a 13in by 13in
space so it's big enough and no matter the size of the space if there's more
than 1 they always seem to encroach on each other). I've never had problems
with 3 in that space before, I usually only have 1 or 2 in it though. I'm a
little nervous that the cats are sabotaging each other.
Comment by Marnie on Tuesday, July 25, 2017
I've read all the info on monarch diseases and none match what I've
incountered. In years past I've had catapillars "get sick". Their droppings
become a green liquid. They than stop acting normal and die in a couple
days. Some try to hang before they are ready. I have found that any
catapillar that are exposed will not survive. If they are in a crystals form
they seem to be ok. If exposed just befor they turn into a crysislis they
will be deformed, wings won't develop or missing toes so they can't grab to
hang while drying. I've tried bleaching cages, not putting them in cages
until they are big and fat. I've raise catapillars for several years and
still don't know what it is or how to prevent it. This year, I had three
small catapillars I brought in just before they were to hatch and had one
catapillars that was bigger. The bigger one was smaller than the group it
was with so I didn't cage it like the others that were ready to crystallize.
The one older catapillar failed to complete the crysilas process. Half way
tru, it seemed like the outer skin wouldn't split and it strangled. It left
a black puddle on the bottom of the cage defore it died. The three small
catapillars became sick the same day. I found one that drowned In the vase
water and the other two just stopped eating, tried to hang and died. They
were only 10 days old after hatching and not very big.
Has anyone else incountered "sick catapillars"?
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Marnie, I've never seen the things you are describing. From what I've
read, "OE" is a pretty big issue, but I've never experienced it nor do I
know much about it. The only real issue I see where I am in California is
the Tachinid fly, which even by itself, can be a huge problem. As for the
pictures of failed pupation that I posted, I really only saw the problems
once and haven't seen it since, so at least for me, it's rare. Anyway, I'm
not really sure what you're dealing with, but it sure sounds frustrating!
Thanks for commenting, and good luck!
Comment by Marnie on Wednesday, July 26, 2017
Thank you for responding. I did some more research after I sent my post. I
search "monarch caterpillar with green diarrhea" and found a very possible
cause to my dying caterpillars. I mentioned this has happened for several
years. I am sad to report I very well have been unknowingly killing my
caterpillar. I use frontline on my cats and dogs. I wash my hands after
treating them and before I handle my caterpillars but possible not enough. I
frontlined my pets the day before I noticed a problem with my caterpillars.
It would make sense that this is the cause. Please share with other
caterpillar caregivers. I will continue to care for caterpillars in the
future but will wear plastic gloves when washing milkweed and handling the
caterpillars and keep my nosey cats away from them. I'll let u know if this
continues to happen. Again, thank you for your quick response and please
share so this doesn't happen to others.
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Marnie, Thanks for your follow-up. I'm not sure if I would have ever
guessed that it might be the anti-flea medication that you put on your pets,
but that makes sense. It probably only takes a trace amount! We used to use
Advantage on our cat, so I'm familiar with it. Our cat passed away a few
years ago (she was 19 years old, rest in peace), so we don't have Advantage
around anymore, but it makes sense to be super careful if you have pets and
use Frontline, Advantage, or any other anti-flea pet medication.
Thanks for sharing this information!
Comment by Mary Beth S. on Wednesday, July 26, 2017
Hello, I live in Iowa and have unsuccessfully tried to raise 4 caterpillars
- each one has succumbed to the same problem as your Egg #2 photo. They have
seemed healthy and active, right up until they attempted to pupate. The cap
formed right behind the head, but the rest of the caterpillar withered away
and leaked green fluid. So incredibly heartbreaking. Three of the
caterpillars I found as first instar larva, and they all molted at the same
time. We were so excited for them to pupate. I believe I was giving them
adequate food, and all my milkweed have been produced from seed. All of my
caterpillars have only ever been found on A. tuberosa - I never find / feed
them common milkweed. Could this be a problem for them?
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Mary Beth, I'm not an expert at all, but I don't think it is related to
the type of milkweed they eat. There are valid arguments over what type of
milkweed to grow depending on where you are, but I don't think the type of
milkweed could cause this problem. Some readers here have suggested possible
causes, including Marnie who just commented that something similar happened
to her, and she thinks it might have been because she put put Frontline
anti-flea medication on her pets the day before she handled her
caterpillars. It probably can be caused by a variety of things, but
fortunately is still seems to be fairly uncommon. I wish you better luck on
your next caterpillars! Thanks for commenting.
Comment by Mary Beth S. on Thursday, July 27, 2017
Thank you for the reply! I think I will keep trying and hope for the best.
We have so much milkweed, some monarchs, and a LOT of predatory wasps. I
have to believe some day it will be successful. Our home is relatively
chemical free however we live in an area surrounded by corn / soybean fields
and crop duster planes are frequently spraying the fields around us. I
wonder if pesticide drift, even at very low levels, could be the culprit?
Comment by vesta on Monday, August 21, 2017
I don't know but I don't think it is as uncommon as previously thought, or
maybe it is becoming more common. After having two perfectly fine batches of
cats to butterflies, the third batch of 10 all died.....They ate
voraciously, got quite big, molted larger and larger and seemed perfectly
normal right up to forming silk buttons and forming the J, but then, one by
one, as they started to form the pupae they just stopped unzipping about 1/8
to 1/4 of the way. There was some writhing and obvious distress but they
were not able to continue, and passed away. Something is happening. I'm in
Connecticut but this sounds like what is happening in Calif, and Arizona as
well. ???????
Reply by Steve (Cranial Borborygmus)
Hi Vesta, Thank you for your comment. Just to clarify, did this happen to
all 10 caterpillars? Did they ALL only partially "unzip" and then die? If it
happened to all 10 out of 10 caterpillars, that is both a lot of
caterpillars and a very high (100%) rate of the problem. It would also be
something I've never heard of or read about until now. Thanks for sharing
this information, though it must have been very disheartening to have
happen.
If you have any more caterpillars, I'll be interested to hear how they do,
and whether or not this is a one time event.
Comment by Eva on Wednesday, August 23, 2017
Hi, I'm in Memphis, TN. Just wanted to mention that something similar
happened to me as well. Found this post searching for answers. I raised my
caterpillar from an egg, and it seemed healthy and happy, but then it
pupated as what appeared to be a 4th instar. I was concerned that it had
pupated too early, and rightfully so, because I believe this played a role
in its failure to form a chrysalis. I had it in mesh cage with another 5
instar cat and another that had already formed its chrysalis. Both active
cats were on their own cuttings. However, a thunderstorm rolled through and
the cage had a bit of rain blow into it (the cage was sitting on a porch). I
promptly cleaned and dried the cage. However, the current (successful)
chrysalis was forming at the same time as the one that failed and rain
didn't seem to affect its process- although that cat was a small 5 instar.
Not sure why it pupated so early. It was on its own milkweed cutting, and
had a good amount left. However, it had spent most of its caterpillar life
indoors in a plastic enclosure and was then moved outside when it got big
enough (and wouldn't be able to escape its new cage). It had probably been
outside about 1 day before it pupated. I wonder if it could be due to a
sudden humidity/heat change? Eva
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